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Support for unlicensed users => Post here if you can't find your License Key => Topic started by: tug on December 01, 2012, 09:28:36 pm

Title: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: tug on December 01, 2012, 09:28:36 pm
really disappointed and a bit annoyed with some changes, for example

worse things

1.- With handling weather's characteristics, having to do it from the animation options is more uncomfortable, because you can't see the process in a static image and you can not adjust as before.

2.- Shadow's control, fog, sun or camera is definitely worse to use, you can't control it unless you are in animation mode, and it must be on build mode,  since it you are constructing scenes and not doing final animations. I feel really frustrated with this, rather to make more easy use Lumion some new changes make uncomfortable the manage.

3. Malfunctions with lateral movements with the mouse, is very very very slower than in previous versions and thus responds worse, even using the Shift key.

4.- Where are section plane? have disappeared from where it was

For statics images I guess still have to use Lumion 2 Pro. I suppose this is the first step and have to solve all those things a new version take with it.



Better thing:

All new effects are nice as new implements, and all the possibilities that them open to animations.

Sound, reflections,  new elements are nice options.a bit annoyed with some changes, for example

I can see to where is Lumion ongoing, but new versions can not lose funcionality and options than previous versions or have to inform to customers to decide to buy or not.
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Andrew-DPR on December 02, 2012, 11:47:42 pm
So far for me my biggest issue has been render times.  I'm redoing a scene I did in 2.5 and in 3.0 the render time has doubled.  I really liked the planar reflections, they can really make a scene pop, but they doubled, on top of the overall doubled time, the total render time needed.

I will add, my scene is a rather complex, and large, interior scene, so I'm prepared for longer render times.  It's too bad I have to turn off some of the settings in order to keep the render under 50 seconds/frame.

Where Lumion continues to excel and blow me away is with exterior shots, they simply look amazing, and 3.0 makes them that much better.  Interior shots are a different story, but if you stay small the program seems to be able to handle them.  Any large areas, like for my conference center, you have to make a lot of sacrifices.
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: ryste3d on December 03, 2012, 08:26:04 am
Properly the first software in the world where they take a way functions and charge you for it. This should be a free update.

All thy have done is fixing stuff that did not work in 2.5 like the reflection.

Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on December 03, 2012, 09:35:53 am
Come on Ryste, either way, so exaggerating, all you will get is that they not take you seriously from now on. Free update?? Come on  :D :D
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: byzantium1200 on December 03, 2012, 09:52:09 am
Lumion 4.0 sneak preview:

Hit the button and it will do something so magical it will blow your mind off. :+
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on December 03, 2012, 09:56:38 am
 :D :D :D :D :D :D so subtle
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: ryste3d on December 03, 2012, 10:16:04 am
Come on Ryste, either way, so exaggerating, all you will get is that they not take you seriously from now on. Free update?? Come on  :D :D

You are right, , of cause we should pay for it.

But I am very impressed by the Lumion User in general. They are so happy no matter what :-)
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Michael Betke on December 03, 2012, 11:38:27 am
But its normal that rendertimes are higer if more/advanced stuff is on screens, isn't it?
If all people need reflections then there is something which reflects and needs to be rendered. 

What you can do is to use the cubemap reflections and move the reflection sphere or use only small clips with the planar reflection. So you have not so many minutes to render with planar reflections.

As an alternative to Lumion you could use a GPU render-engine like "Octane" (which is my choise) and render a project there. Different workflow - more difficult and pro as for an architect -  but with 3 or even a quad-SLI you get very good quality with 30sec / frame at the moment.

I just think its time for Lumion to ge multi-CPU support. Imagine an invest of 400€ for a card and get your rendertimes shortend at 100%. I hope this will happen!
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: ryste3d on December 03, 2012, 12:58:20 pm

3. Malfunctions with lateral movements with the mouse, is very very very slower than in previous versions and thus responds worse, even using the Shift key.


Also had trouble with this: Try Shift + W or Shift + E and press Left mouse butten at the same time.
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: ryste3d on December 03, 2012, 01:13:42 pm
But its normal that rendertimes are higer if more/advanced stuff is on screens, isn't it?
If all people need reflections then there is something which reflects and needs to be rendered. 

What you can do is to use the cubemap reflections and move the reflection sphere or use only small clips with the planar reflection. So you have not so many minutes to render with planar reflections.

As an alternative to Lumion you could use a GPU render-engine like "Octane" (which is my choise) and render a project there. Different workflow - more difficult and pro as for an architect -  but with 3 or even a quad-SLI you get very good quality with 30sec / frame at the moment.

I just think its time for Lumion to ge multi-CPU support. Imagine an invest of 400€ for a card and get your rendertimes shortend at 100%. I hope this will happen!


Totally agree with you...


Question: How did you make the fotter in your post? (with info about your website)
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: stucki on December 03, 2012, 01:19:41 pm
Hi guys,
i really dont understand your concerns about lumion 3.0 update.
okay there is not everything finally polished, but otherwise you have been delayed on the release.

i personally think 3.0 is the by far biggest and best update till now !
i am in cg scene for some years and really like the new possibilities lumion 3.0 offers to our company !

i have some small problems with some design choices myself but i know the lumion team will work on them.

but 3.0 update is really outstanding:

-global illumination: makes your scene look so more real
-up to 5 accurate reflections : adds so much realisme, too
-better transparencies and 2 sided glass ( and they will try to make it even better in the future )
-3d sounds in the engine
-video support for textures
-the new trees and plants are truly beautiful (and the dont even impact on framerate )
-new 3d people (and more will come ..)

naturely more complex calculations make rendering times longer, but i am sure next grafik cards will equal this. And if your are making money with this software you really should invest in the fastest grafic card out there - it shouldnt take you even one job to get it back)

give 3.0 a fair chance. Work a while with it, try to adobt to its changed features and i think you will become to love it.

thats my thoughhts about 3.0
kind regards
stucki

Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Michael Betke on December 03, 2012, 01:57:13 pm
I also think its a great release which was worth the money. Now I need some jobs to use it lol. Only rendering at the moment here. No real-time. :(


Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: tug on December 03, 2012, 02:02:58 pm

give 3.0 a fair chance. Work a while with it, try to adobt to its changed features and i think you will become to love it.

thats my thoughhts about 3.0
kind regards
stucki


Hi Stucki

Of course we love the new features, them are amazing, really nice and powerful.

We exposed the comments for those functionality features fundamental for work day by day in an architecture firm, where changes are a constant and we need a UI more accurate, even the previous wasn't perfect, but better than some parts of this new one.

for instance, a easy sun and environmental controls are basic for us, and we can't be changed between VM to PhM for modify this for each view. Shadows, camera focal length, fog, exposure.... are fundamental for each view and we have to have an easy control of them, quick, easy and accurate.

Have I explained?

1.- We love Lumion as well.

2.- We need some previous controls for our better work.

3.- We all are involved with this adventure and it will be so ever.

regards

tug
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: tug on December 03, 2012, 02:04:04 pm
I also think its a great release which was worth the money. Now I need some jobs to use it lol. Only rendering at the moment here. No real-time. :(


We need real time Michael, we need.
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 03, 2012, 03:26:13 pm
So far for me my biggest issue has been render times.  I'm redoing a scene I did in 2.5 and in 3.0 the render time has doubled.  I really liked the planar reflections, they can really make a scene pop, but they doubled, on top of the overall doubled time, the total render time needed.

I will add, my scene is a rather complex, and large, interior scene, so I'm prepared for longer render times.  It's too bad I have to turn off some of the settings in order to keep the render under 50 seconds/frame.

Hi amartindill, every time you add 1 reflection plane, Lumion has to mirror all models + render the entire scene once more. If you already have a complex scene, you can imagine what this does to the vertex count and memory usage.

The same principle applies if you add a spotlight with Shadow cache turned off (in Edit properties).

Example:
Let's say you have a scene with 1 million vertices and 8 spotlights with Shadow cache turned off, so the scene is already rendered 9 times per frame. That's 9 million vertices.

You then add 1 reflection plane which mirrors everything in your scene.

Now your scene has to be rendered 18 times per frame. That's 18 million vertices :)

As you can see, reflection planes combined with spotlights with Shadow cache turned off are real performance hogs.

For that reason, try to use as few reflection planes as possible and always make sure your spotlights use Shadow caches when you use the Reflection effect in your scene.
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 03, 2012, 04:42:43 pm
1.- With handling weather's characteristics, having to do it from the animation options is more uncomfortable, because you can't see the process in a static image and you can not adjust as before.
I'm not sure what you mean by this: "you can't see the process in a static image". Can you explain what you mean?

2.- Shadow's control, fog, sun or camera is definitely worse to use, you can't control it unless you are in animation mode, and it must be on build mode,  since it you are constructing scenes and not doing final animations. I feel really frustrated with this, rather to make more easy use Lumion some new changes make uncomfortable the manage.
Have you tried to use the new 'Build mode with effects' button in the top left corner of the Photo and Movie sections? This lets you see your scene in Build mode with all Movie/Photo effects enabled, including shadows, fog and sun.

3. Malfunctions with lateral movements with the mouse, is very very very slower than in previous versions and thus responds worse, even using the Shift key.
In Lumion 2.5, quite a few of you said that it was not possible to move the camera with enough accuracy in tight spaces, e.g. interiors. So Ferry made the camera slower in 3.0 but it now accelerates if you keep moving it. In addition, there are 2 ways to make it go faster, and both can be used in combination: SHIFT key and the left mouse button.

4.- Where are section plane? have disappeared from where it was
This is covered in the following post (search for Clip plane):
http://lumion3d.com/forum/announcements/lumion-3-0-released/msg43659/#msg43659 (http://lumion3d.com/forum/announcements/lumion-3-0-released/msg43659/#msg43659)
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: giosucci on December 03, 2012, 09:16:40 pm
Mortem,

but shadow maps are not really full blown rendering of the scene, are they?
They should be rendered much faster than normal rendering.

In your example, I bet rendering times will not be 18 times slower... :)

Even planar reflections should not take as long as a regular render, since they are not antialiased... and maybe there are other optimization in place? Like, lighting quality...?

I like v.3, keep up the good work!

regards

gio
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: tug on December 03, 2012, 09:22:25 pm
I'm not sure what you mean by this: "you can't see the process in a static image". Can you explain what you mean?

Hi Morten, sure I can

In previous versions in built mode we can manage all this features (sun, camera, exposure, focal lenght,.....) and this parameter are valid for ALL IMAGES you want to create in PhM...

Now it isn't possible, you can save only ten pre-views images no more and have to move from VM to PhM constantly.... this isn't confortable.

When you are showing a project to clients you can't say, "wait, I have to readjust the parameters and come back to show on real time your project". That was one of the best characteristics from Lumion, any time you can move, change, adapt and manage the main features in a while and take a lot of pictures with the same environmental, now it isn't possible.

And what is more important the shadows slider, we use very large urgan developments, the new implement for manage shadows aren't confortable and is poor than previous.

There is not only me who said this, you see more than 500 post regarding this issue, this don't mean we don't value all the efforts to improve Lumion, only hear those voices who call you to take an account about lost functionality in Lumion.

Do you understand me now?

anyway thanks for all the work done and for an amazing software.
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 04, 2012, 05:34:44 pm
In your example, I bet rendering times will not be 18 times slower... :)

Hi Gio, of course not - this depends on your graphics card and how much memory you have.

There are some optimisations in place, but planar reflections is a 'brute-force' style effect: You literally tell DirectX to mirror all geometry in your scene and render it once more.

In the 64-bit version, Lumion will try to use all of your graphics card RAM, then your system RAM and finally it will try to use your harddrive as swap space.

Moving stuff to and from the various types of storage media is slow, so if you ever experience really long render times where it might even look like Lumion is frozen, there is probably so much geometry and textures in your scene (e.g. caused by reflection planes and multiple spotlights with Shadow cache turned off) that the graphics card has run out of memory and your system memory and harddrive are picking up the slack :)
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 04, 2012, 05:39:14 pm
In previous versions in built mode we can manage all this features (sun, camera, exposure, focal lenght,.....) and this parameter are valid for ALL IMAGES you want to create in PhM...

Now it isn't possible, you can save only ten pre-views images no more and have to move from VM to PhM constantly.... this isn't confortable.

Just to clarify what has changed and what hasn't, there were only 10 camera save slots in Lumion 2.5.

It's the same number in Lumion 3.0.

What's new is that you can apply effects to the Photo section (and you can copy effects from the Photo section to the Movie section and vice versa).

In addition, the custom map export options (Depthmap, Lighting map etc) as well as the ability to render camera keyframes from clips have been moved to the Movie section.

If you go to Photo mode from Movie mode, the effects are no longer 'inherited' as many people who used Lumion for the first time could not understand this principle.

Until the developers of Lumion have a chance to think things through, I would personally recommend that you use the Movie section more as a Photo mode. This will allow you to save more than 10 camera angles (as clips).

IMPORTANT: There is a new Shots output mode in the Movie section too:

Movie section -> Save Movie (or Create movie from clip) -> Images -> Frame range -> Custom -> Shots

This lets you quickly render each camera keyframe in a clip or in the entire movie as a still image.

In Lumion 3.0.1 which will be released soon, there is also a new Single tab in the Save Movie options window. This allows you to save whatever frame is currently active in the Movie section. This is basically exactly the same function as when you went from Movie mode to Photo mode in Lumion 2.5 to take a photo with all effects. You can save each image including any custom maps such as Depthmaps, Sky alpha maps etc in resolutions up to Print and Poster size.

And what is more important the shadows slider, we use very large urgan developments, the new implement for manage shadows aren't confortable and is poor than previous.

As I have mentioned in other posts, this was a bug. The Shadow range slider was accidentally set to 0-1 instead of 0-2 (as in Lumion 2.5). It will be fixed in Lumion 3.0.1 which will be released soon.
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 04, 2012, 05:46:22 pm
Hi byzantium1200, please refresh this page.

While you wrote your reply, I copy-pasted some more information from my other posts :)
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 04, 2012, 05:48:38 pm
Hi Morten in 2.5 it is possible to save more than 10 camera views by adding them as movie shots and then going to photo mode and render anyone that you liked. I used and liked it a lot. Now you can render them from the movie mode, but all at once and at lower resolutions.

Please read my reply above:
In Lumion 3.0.1 which will be released soon, there is also a new Single tab in the Save Movie options window. This allows you to save whatever frame is currently active in the Movie section. This is basically exactly the same function as when you went from Movie mode to Photo mode in Lumion 2.5 to take a photo with all effects. You can save each image including any custom maps such as Depthmaps, Sky alpha maps etc in resolutions up to Print and Poster size.

Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: byzantium1200 on December 04, 2012, 05:50:26 pm
Deleted it.

At least we will be able to do what we could. Thanks for this.
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Zdenek Fajfrlik on December 04, 2012, 05:55:59 pm
Please read my reply above:


i morten,
When we use the movie mode as a picture / view container

is it possible to save a picture with all parameters (effects) an a single frame, so that a movoe can be a row of TOTAL RECALL views ?

and could this then be rendered as a movie to jpg key by key?

but that i could have a series of pictures per video and a total recall of environment and light and other settings , when importing a new model

am i right?

thanx stan
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 04, 2012, 06:04:00 pm
At least we will be able to do what we could. Thanks for this.

Yes, and the number of clicks will be the same (+1 intial click to select the Single tab in the Save Movie options window).
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 04, 2012, 06:09:23 pm
i morten,
When we use the movie mode as a picture / view container

is it possible to save a picture with all parameters (effects) an a single frame, so that a movoe can be a row of TOTAL RECALL views ?

and could this then be rendered as a movie to jpg key by key?

but that i could have a series of pictures per video and a total recall of environment and light and other settings , when importing a new model

Yes, you are right.

If you use Movie mode like that, you can save any number of clips with 1 camera keyframe in each. And each clip can have its own effect stack, including separate Sun/Shadow/Camera settings.

If you then use the new Shots function in Movie mode, you can render all camera keyframes in all clips with a single click. This is actually a lot easier and faster than the old method in 2.5 where you had to render images indivdually:
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 04, 2012, 06:12:33 pm
The downside is that this method does not allow you to separate clips that you want in your video from 1-camera-keyframe clips that you just saved for use as individual photos.

From Lumion's point of view, they're all clips that should be included when you render your entire movie.

In other words, if you wanted to render a video, you'd first have to delete all saved 1-camera-keyframe clips.

The developers are aware of this, but please be patient until they have had some time to consider what to do about it.
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Zdenek Fajfrlik on December 04, 2012, 06:19:09 pm
Yes, you are right.

If you use Movie mode like that, you can save any number of clips with 1 camera keyframe in each. And each clip can have its own effect stack, including separate Sun/Shadow/Camera settings.

If you then use the new Shots function in Movie mode, you can render all camera keyframes in all clips with a single click. This is actually a lot easier and faster than the old method in 2.5 where you had to render images indivdually:

yupiiiiiaaaaaeeeehhhhhhh!
that's my total recall......ok, thanx for confirmation,

now we can:

- make sets of pictures like

sunny video
foggy video
night
day
whatever

with unlimited and saved views incl. all parameters

we have a batch export for those picture sets

can reload new models as a new dae and apply materials from other models, even from other lumion projects

can define default material tabels in skp & lumion and have a basic material definition at any model, right after beeing loaded (which save time twice - first, start definitions loadedautomatically AND redifining material then is much quiclier thana new definition was.....fantastic....)

ok, this really makes my day! imagine, how much time-efficient now lumion is! great....

thank you very much

stan

ps: so now only has to be cleared, if some lost functions (far clouds?) can come back
and then all effects are the same in build and movie mode

next step : integrate the build. ode to a movie mode, whith small effect bars , numerical input etc and no switching between modes is necessary anymore .... ultimative time saving in the workflow

  :D
Title: Re: first impressions with lumion v.3
Post by: Morten on December 04, 2012, 07:08:52 pm
ps: so now only has to be cleared, if some lost functions (far clouds?) can come back
I guess you haven't had time to read this post yet?

http://lumion3d.com/forum/bugs-and-issues/lost-functionality-in-lumion-3-0/msg44510/#msg44510 (http://lumion3d.com/forum/bugs-and-issues/lost-functionality-in-lumion-3-0/msg44510/#msg44510)