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Support for unlicensed users => Post here if you can't find your License Key => Topic started by: bloky on February 14, 2012, 11:35:23 am

Title: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: bloky on February 14, 2012, 11:35:23 am
Yet another promising realtime engine. I think it's based on Quest3d!

Free Radical Engine
» http://www.ali-rahimi.net/ (http://www.ali-rahimi.net/)

Free Radical (Deferred Rendering Engine) WIP 01 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdTmTplXHaQ#ws)
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: stucki on February 14, 2012, 12:12:48 pm
cool mirror effects on the diamon / sphere !!
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on February 14, 2012, 07:57:29 pm
Center Sam is amazing.
http://ali-rahimi.net/pages/portfolio/sam-center.html (http://ali-rahimi.net/pages/portfolio/sam-center.html)
I did not know Quest3D as the base platform could achieve a quality of reflection and global illumination as showing Ali in his Portfolio. Great future for realtime.
PS: Hire this guy.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Architectural Innovation on February 14, 2012, 08:06:41 pm
thanks for sharing. that is very cool.

bob
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on February 14, 2012, 08:09:23 pm
By the way, this of Quest3d... is more complicated, isn´t??  :-D :-D
I found a large list of tutorials from soth3dcom.
Quest3D Tutorial 2A (Interface) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PGfEBgkHDA#)
If anyone is encouraged, plant him facing Lumion the year that comes.  :D :D
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: thecravatman on February 14, 2012, 11:22:46 pm
On his website he specifically says that code is from scratch and not from Quest3D.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: ali rahimi shahmirzadi on February 14, 2012, 11:50:07 pm
Oh. Look at here. Thank's guys.
I have no idea about the hiring, maybe Christopher ;)
Btw, by saying (all code is from scratch) i was mostly referring to shading codes (HLSL), otherwise its all done with Quest3D. I fixed it in my website.
You can fallow development progress in Quest3D forum if you like http://quest3d.com/forum/index.php?topic=70937.0 (http://quest3d.com/forum/index.php?topic=70937.0)
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Remko on February 15, 2012, 10:56:37 am
Center Sam is amazing.
http://ali-rahimi.net/pages/portfolio/sam-center.html (http://ali-rahimi.net/pages/portfolio/sam-center.html)
I did not know Quest3D as the base platform could achieve a quality of reflection and global illumination as showing Ali in his Portfolio. Great future for realtime.
PS: Hire this guy.

If life were only this good :D The radiosity is all baked. You could do the same now for Lumion using Vray and 3DSMax but most people don't bother because it's a lot of work and takes a lot of time to render the light maps.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on February 15, 2012, 11:20:59 am
Oh I see.  :-[ And Remko what is the explanation for the reflexions, can be achieved in some near future a reflection like that, in floors and crystals?
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: sach on February 15, 2012, 02:02:28 pm
The only thing that's stopping me from investing $2000 can. is that i have no guarantee what so ever that reflexion will be ever developped............in a near future­..........and i need it.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Gilson Antunes on February 15, 2012, 05:02:13 pm
Remko.

The effect of refraction in the sphere seems realistic.  :o
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Remko on February 15, 2012, 05:44:41 pm
Remko.

The effect of refraction in the sphere seems realistic.  :o

The refraction/reflection effect is really easy but the main problem is it works only in a few cases. Essentially reflection is a cube map Like in Lumion so that's exacly the same. In Lumion you would have to create a ball, assign the glass material or something else reflective and place the reflection point in the ball. Refraction is the same as reflection but instead of using the reflected vector to look up the reflection map coordinates you use the refraction vector. Only works with balls and stuff like that but currently it's the best way to fake refraction.

We could in theory distort the background but it would not look as good and you can only have one layer of this material and not see one refracted material trough the other. If you want to have that capability we have to grab the render buffer for each individual object before moving to the next. This is really slow!

I think by the way that most of the stuff you see here will be included with quest3d as a refernece project. It has sun shadows, ssoa an things like that. It does not have the skinned shaders yet and also no spot lights right now.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: yak on February 15, 2012, 06:29:01 pm
I'm curious, is there any thought being given to adding fake refraction of objects in water, in Lumion?
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Remko on February 15, 2012, 06:43:39 pm
I'm curious, is there any thought being given to adding fake refraction of objects in water, in Lumion?

The underwater surface is refracted.... so what's the question?
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: yak on February 15, 2012, 07:08:55 pm
Assuming these are 6x6 tiles, those below the water line would typically look like 3x6 tiles, due to the viscosity/density and nature of water.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Morten on February 15, 2012, 07:24:51 pm
I'm curious, is there any thought being given to adding fake refraction of objects in water, in Lumion?

Assuming these are 6x6 tiles, those below the water line would typically look like 3x6 tiles, due to the viscosity/density and nature of water.

So you mean physically correct refraction then - as opposed to faking it with a bit of animated distortion as Lumion and most other real-time 3D engines do achieve this effect?

Raytraced reflections/refractions are currently not really a practical option in real-time 3D (unless you have very small scenes).

I guess we have to wait for the graphics card manufacturers to add hardware-accelerated raytracing functionality. But until then, we have to fake it :)
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on February 15, 2012, 07:46:23 pm
Are this floor with raytraced reflections or is is a cube map like in Lumion??
Because I don´t get even the 10% of quality of this image upload, so What is exactly the same?? I see inferior programs than Lumion, like Lumenrt offer realtime reflections, and don´t understand why we have to wait for the development of more graphic.
I've noticed as of version 1 to version 2, the average render times have gone from 6-7 to 9-10 seconds per frame. It would not be feasible to assess such an effect that anyone who wants to incorporate it assuming the increase in render times?
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Morten on February 15, 2012, 11:23:46 pm
Those are planar reflections where you render everything twice.

There's more information here:
http://lumion3d.com/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg20705#msg20705 (http://lumion3d.com/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg20705#msg20705)
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: yak on February 15, 2012, 11:34:55 pm
I was simply interested in the aspect of how far  "physically correct refraction Faking", could be taken in Lumion, without the added overhead of Raytraced reflections/refractions as they currently apply in most applications. I thought maybe Lumion's programmers were on the verge of discovering a new Algorithm  :-D

p.s. sorry for interfering with the original topic
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Remko on February 16, 2012, 12:26:24 am
Are this floor with raytraced reflections or is is a cube map like in Lumion??
Because I don´t get even the 10% of quality of this image upload, so What is exactly the same?? I see inferior programs than Lumion, like Lumenrt offer realtime reflections, and don´t understand why we have to wait for the development of more graphic.
I've noticed as of version 1 to version 2, the average render times have gone from 6-7 to 9-10 seconds per frame. It would not be feasible to assess such an effect that anyone who wants to incorporate it assuming the increase in render times?

We opted for reflection maps because it's really the only technique which works on all objects. What you see here is achieved by mirroring the scene in the reflection plane and rendering everything again. To prevent objects from sticking out a clip plane is used. The reflected scene is rendered to a texture and used on the ground surface for example to create the final image. The problem with this method is that it halves performance but some times it's worth it and you just have to make sure you don't have too many reflecting planes.

I don't think the render times have gone up. The ssoa and material are faster. The deferred method makes some shaders slower but it depends on the scene if the final render time is slower or faster. Adding lights makes things slower but that's quite logical. For final render the reflection map is slower but that's because it contains more now and has more accuracy. For final renders we only calculate it once so it shouldn't influence performace too much.

On the subject of the planar reflections... I think we'll make it happen at some point but we haven't had the chance yet. If we do it proprely it can even be faster than the current method. A reflection map contains 6 images and if you have only 1 reflective plane you could theoretically render with only 1 image.

Physically correct refractions won't happen if without any form of ray tracing. Only very simple distortions can be emulated using rasterization.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Remko on February 16, 2012, 12:36:38 am
I think that ray-tracing is closer than we think. A recent paper on cone tracing changed my mind. The paper uses a huge sparse voxel tree to fit the entire scene but in theory you could render the voxel tree on the fly for every frame and have more resolution near the camera so you can fit huge scenes in relatively small amount of memory. I think it's a brilliant combination of rasterization and a rough form of ray tracing with great potential. We'll have to see how this turns out but it could be enough for plausible reflections, refractions, ao and indirect lighting.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: sach on February 16, 2012, 12:42:12 am
The real question is:  Will Lumion be able to render reflection like this scene?

And will there be some kind of transparency for meterials else than glass?
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: sach on February 16, 2012, 12:44:51 am
The real question is:  Will Lumion be able to render reflection like this scene?

And will there be some kind of transparency for meterials else than glass?

I'm buying Lumion Ultimate tomorrow and i would feel very, very bad if i would never be able to get reflection out of it.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Gilson Antunes on February 16, 2012, 12:48:41 am
As I understand it, the issue of improving transparency would come with the new DirectX.

Is that right?
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: ali rahimi shahmirzadi on February 16, 2012, 01:29:33 am
The Reflection which you are see on sam center project is practical because that project was forward render. For deferred render its much more complicated. There are only 3 practical way in my mind for a proper reflection with a deferred engine.
1. screen space reflection which is buggy but its better than nothing. DX9
Crysis new water shader (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VrSXAHbCYk#ws)
2. Using DX 10 or 11
3. very very optimize scene management to overcome performance issue. DX9
Refraction is not a big issue.

We will go for a combination of SSR and cubemap. AAA games like crysis2 are using all sorts of combination. they separate outdoor from indoor lighting.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on February 16, 2012, 09:07:40 am
Once again it seems that I screw up.  |:(
The whole idea that before render times ranged from 6/7 seconds per frame, and now I can not down of 9 sec. But I have opened a scene Lumion Lumion 1 in 2 and here are the times. And apparently there is no further discussion, Lumion 2.1 is faster. Sorry Remko.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on February 16, 2012, 10:01:42 am
Ok, this is my best attempt of quality resoult to achieve a mirror with ball reflection.
This is impossible to achieve a reflection for the floor. And the smaller the mirror, the better resoult.  :-D :-D
Upload video and images.
And by the way, thanks Ali, for all your comments and explanations of your remarkable work.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: julian boswell on February 16, 2012, 05:27:39 pm
Lumion handles reflections/refractions much better than even cryengine 3.  Especially glass reflections.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Remko on February 16, 2012, 05:49:21 pm
Lumion handles reflections/refractions much better than even cryengine 3.  Especially glass reflections.

Cryengine uses static reflection maps. The idea is simple: you place a probe somewhere, grab a cube map and use it. We could do the same in Lumion but we want it to update dynamically.

For planar reflections they use the technique described below.

Unless something really disappointing happens I guess we will be able to deliver fine planar reflections with bumpmaps and all in Lumion at some point. No planning yet but it's sort of obvious we have to do it. I always have some research going on here and there just for future developments and curiosity. I was recently looking at better, faster ssao and correct transparency. My conclusion is that correct layers of glass is very doable. Rendering semi transparent layers is more difficult because of performance issue. The big problem is that for each layer of translucent materials we have to do the complete lighting again. Maybe it's smarter to optimize the lighting first. This would also help with reflections. In architecture we have a lot of opertunities to optimize. The lights are often static and so is the model. I was think about something like this:

 - first make a list of all the light cones that penetrate the view and ignore all others.
 - Use static shadow maps as default for all lights
 - If a light is very small or far away, just render without shadow maps
 - When a light moves or something in it's view moves recalculate the shadow map
    - For each light build a list of lights within the light cone.
    - Only render those object that are in, moved in or moved out the light cone.

In most practical situations this would mean the rendering is very fast. Lights rarely move and objects too so in 99% of the cases a cached version can be used. For a big building usually only a small percentage of lights is in view so that's another oppertunity to optimize. The ideal solution is occlusion culling but that would be really hard. In full quality render mode we should be able to create a buffer wich contains all visible lights so in the 15 consecutive passes invisible lights will be ignored.

Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: BMcIsaac on February 16, 2012, 07:58:50 pm
Quote
Unless something really disappointing happens I guess we will be able to deliver fine planar reflections with bumpmaps and all in Lumion at some point. No planning yet but it's sort of obvious we have to do it.

Oh Yes!!

By the way...sorry to distract... a lot of Sketchup users have a copy of Thea....you can quickly bake your textures there and the resulting normals seem to pop very well.
It is easy to adjust the Thea sun to a neutral overhead that casts very good shading.
works really well for any horizontal surfaces. Takes a couple of extra minutes.
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on February 16, 2012, 09:11:57 pm
Modelhead, Can you take the time for make a tutorial of that, or maybe upload a resoult of reflection in Lumion floor with the use of that baked textures??
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: BMcIsaac on February 16, 2012, 10:24:05 pm
I have not experimented with floors ...I will soon but for walls or other horizontal things it works. You don't even need Thea but you do need sketchup.
With thea you can burn in the details in a rock or wood grain and shadow as in my  "Tudor to Contemporary" post.
You can adjust the amount of bump or grain in Thea with displacement or by placing a normal (made from the texture with nvidia's normal tools) in the bump panel.
You just need to put the sun in the position that is most neutral so the shadow is cast downward..this way it works in a movie. You can bake in shadows in any direction if it is to match the sun in a still shot....but baked shadows do not move

go here for an example of this texture (and stone texture) in use.. http://ibuildmodels.com/ROD2.html (http://ibuildmodels.com/ROD2.html)

.....as in example
1. Make a profile of overlapping sideing board in sketchup. set your camera straight on and fill the screen, shadows off. You need to build a whole wall.

2. Ad your flat, grained texture

3. Export to Thea...it will come in at the same view and perspective.

4. Adjust your sun position in thea....ad bump or depth and bake for a bit, I usually get enough with a regular nonbiased setting in 30 minutes. Map your new texture in Sketchup. Import your model into Lumion.

5. Open your new baked texture in PS and make a normal with nvidia tools

6. Go to Lumion with the resulting textures and normals and adjust bump...etc.

Questions?
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on February 16, 2012, 11:11:35 pm
Modelhead, You were not talking about reflections?
Forgive me for asking you to prepare it a tutorial, but for me were talking about the poor reflection of Lumion and comparing with the various software and reflection techniques.
When you've said that with baked textures in horizontal surfaces the result was pretty good and did not require many minutes ... Take away some reputation points if it makes you feel better.  :D Sorry man. ???
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: BMcIsaac on February 16, 2012, 11:36:15 pm
No...insted I gave you one.....

I was the one that got off topic...not you. So it is my fault and you get my vote for having to worry about it...lol
Title: Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
Post by: yak on February 17, 2012, 08:20:21 pm
quote by Remko
Quote
We opted for reflection maps because it's really the only technique which works on all objects. What you see here is achieved by mirroring the scene in the reflection plane and rendering everything again. To prevent objects from sticking out a clip plane is used. The reflected scene is rendered to a texture and used on the ground surface for example to create the final image. The problem with this method is that it halves performance but some times it's worth it and you just have to make sure you don't have too many reflecting planes.

Thinking out loud: if the reflected mirror map had a transform applied, which squeezes it by 1/2, then presumably would one not end up with a very good faked Raytraced reflections/refraction effect?

p.s. hard to stay on the subject too many great points are being raised under this thread.