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Support for unlicensed users => Post here if you can't find your License Key => Topic started by: Nico RVArq.com on October 28, 2011, 12:15:30 pm

Title: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on October 28, 2011, 12:15:30 pm
Realtime CG Environment Interior (http://vimeo.com/31107976)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: newman on October 28, 2011, 12:53:01 pm
It was made not in Lumion. IMHO we cold make it not worse if Lumion developers gave as artifical light and libraries of interior materials and objects. But I think they believe architects do not like to walk inside their creations :-D
And do not think about mirrors in your interiors! It is not for Lumion! :-[
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Morten on October 28, 2011, 01:26:00 pm
Looks like baked lightmaps, so you can't move/change any light sources without having to bake the lightmaps again. Nice example though, but you have to have to hire them on a per-project basis to get this sort of quality.

@Newman: In Lumion 1 the focus was on exteriors. Lumion 2 will focus on interiors.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: arch_bd on October 28, 2011, 01:46:28 pm
I'm in the same mind with Morten, nothing more than a good example.
Lumion has created a free space for simple and very comfortable realization of our works.
I feel good to hear staff focusing on interior in Lumion 2.
Well done guys, you are extraordinary creative and I feel lucky and happy that I am a user of this application with great value.Thank You LUMION
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: newman on October 28, 2011, 02:41:20 pm
Looks like baked lightmaps, so you can't move/change any light sources without having to bake the lightmaps again. Nice example though, but you have to have to hire them on a per-project basis to get this sort of quality.

@Newman: In Lumion 1 the focus was on exteriors. Lumion 2 will focus on interiors.
Good news! I admire your resolve but a lot of  important works we are waiting in exteriors! First of all - "digging" of flat levels or tracks on terrains or precise positioning of objects and models.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: arch_bd on October 29, 2011, 09:17:29 pm
The sample is here:
There is no connection with a professional software, we can not compare the quality and performance that gives Lumion.
Look at this:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14067385/The%20Gherkin/1.1/WebPlayer/WebPlayer.html (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14067385/The%20Gherkin/1.1/WebPlayer/WebPlayer.html)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Gaieus on October 30, 2011, 06:54:09 am
Ah yes, Unity is also  fine piece of software (goes on a different route however).

If only once, in the future, Lumion also allowed web publishing (I know there are licensing issues).
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: newman on November 01, 2011, 09:30:51 am
Ah yes, Unity is also  fine piece of software (goes on a different route however).
Unity is beyond of reason comparison. Look on Twinmotion, for example. It is non-professional program for visualisation too and it can that. Lumion is better,  more trustworthy and simpler but their excellent programmers refuse to take into account some extreme needs of users. Did you try to make a road through waved terrain? Or did you try to pin  a jet of Lumion fountain spray on a tip of tube in modelled fountain?  As for me, i was forced to make highways on  pillars and lost hours to put fountains on the place, as on picture  - and nevertheless when i shoot photo, they were displaced in some points of view.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Morten on November 01, 2011, 10:37:50 am
Or did you try to pin a jet of Lumion fountain spray on a tip of tube in modelled fountain? As for me, i ... lost hours to put fountains on the place, as on picture  - and nevertheless when i shoot photo, they were displaced in some points of view.
Why were you not able to place the water particle systems accurately on the fountain? Can you describe the problem in more detail?

Did you already check out the Tips & Tricks thread? It describes how to move objects horizontally (with snapping turned off) - perhaps this would make it easier?
http://lumion3d.com/forum/index.php?topic=638.0 (http://lumion3d.com/forum/index.php?topic=638.0)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: newman on November 01, 2011, 01:54:01 pm
Thank you Morten. I have read T&T and used shift key of course. Problem is absence of coordinates of the point to what i move and absence of coordinate of moving object. There is no that problems in 2D ordinates, where you can move object on the plan about X and Y, and then come to front view to fit Z position.  It is impossible in 3D view "to catch" real position and direction of moving. When one changes camera point of view he can see his direction was false. He have to change a view many times to correct mess. And no assurance that you observed situation well.
I do not know what can be done. Maybe it is possible to state by mouse and fix any points on model surface or edge and then allow moving gizmo to snap to. You see it better. But I know confidently architect or designer must establish relative distances  or intervals. I do believe you can bring in hot keys "repeat last" and "repeat last with copy" as minimum for moving. All of you have brilliant brains, true. May be you the best. But have you somebody in command who concern with architect tasks, not games? It seems that all of you are more enthusiastic about new sort of insects than about designing of  territory. It may well be I am wrong...
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Morten on November 02, 2011, 11:40:50 am
Problem is absence of coordinates of the point to what i move and absence of coordinate of moving object.

Please use the latest version of Lumion and turn on Settings -> Show Frames per second. The coordinates of the object you are moving will appear in the top right corner. There is currently no way to type in absolute coordinates/angles/sizes for objects.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Morten on November 02, 2011, 12:02:21 pm
But have you somebody in command who concern with architect tasks, not games?

I am an architect but to use your expression, I am not "in command" (I am primarily responsible for the model/material library, and some other stuff, such as reproducing/forwarding bugs to them).

From time to time, they do ask me for input concerning features and I obviously also have a wish list of my own which overlaps many of the user requests in the forum.

However, Ferry, Remko and Arthur ultimately decide which features they believe should be implemented in Lumion, based on the vision they have for the software and the feasibility of said features. Everything takes time, and balancing the time spent on developing new features, fixing bugs as well as on improvements of existing functionality will always be challenging. Add to that the fact that they are running a business while being the primary developers of Lumion, and it's easy to see why things take time.

That being said, I'm hopeful that we'll get there, one feature at a time, and 2012 is shaping up to be a great year for Lumion.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on November 02, 2011, 12:55:40 pm
LUMION WILL EAT 2012 !!  :D
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: newman on November 02, 2011, 07:29:16 pm
Thank you Morton for detailed answer. I understand all hard problems that stay before developers. I hope you will find balance and best decisions. As for problem of placing - what use to know coordinates of moving point when you do not know coordinates of target? If somebody think that do not need to make easier positioning let he write instruction with algorithm of that operations and
describe use of numbers in corner of screen. Thank you once more.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Morten on November 03, 2011, 09:41:21 am
As for problem of placing - what use to know coordinates of moving point when you do not know coordinates of target?

Displaying the position while moving objects is a small step in the right direction. I would personally prefer to be able to assign accurate position/rotation/scale values to objects, and I hope that there will be an opportunity for them to look at ways to improve the transform functionality in Lumion in the future.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: RT-Visualization on November 03, 2011, 12:12:57 pm
Looking at the video it seems that is something can be "easily" done with Unity3D.

I saw a couple of Architectural Visualization made with it and I must say that the quality is quite good, not the greatest, but more than ok, considering that can be run on a web browser via the plugin §( with lot of aliasing! )
Lighting looks good thanks to the lightmaps ( Beast is fuggin amazing and fast ) and the interactivity with the environment is well done ( that is something that I would like to see in Lumion too )

There are lots of options out there for Arch Viz ( Unity3D and UDK are two good examples ) and the market is growing, so next year there will be the war of the realtime engines!
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Morten on November 03, 2011, 12:15:04 pm
Yes, personally I'm very fond of the web player option in Unity, but the problem with both Unity and UDK is that it is currently a bit difficult to set up real-time walkthroughs that include the options that are available in the video (assuming that you're new to these applications). I also seem to recall that the UDK requires royalty payments for commercial visualisations (if your annual income exceeds a certain threshold) - or is this no longer the case?
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: RT-Visualization on November 03, 2011, 12:30:30 pm
Yes, personally I'm very fond of the web player option in Unity, but the problem with both Unity and UDK is that it is currently a bit difficult to set up real-time walkthroughs that include the options that are available in the video (assuming that you're new to these applications). I also seem to recall that the UDK requires royalty payments for commercial visualisations (if your annual income exceeds a certain threshold) - or is this no longer the case?

Epic did a very aggressive market choice since you don't have to pay nothing unless your annual revenue is more than 50k, so fair enough!

Problem ( main problem I should say ) is that with both requires mesh optimization, that is a real pain in the a.. so is very time consuming...you could setup a scene with 8-10 milion polys, but it will run very very slow and ( for Unity3D ) it will be almost impossible to run it into a web browser, due to the amount of data.
Is not that complicated to setup those interactivity stuff ( doors opening and switching textures ), since there are lots of free scripts available on the forum, but still both engines are too game oriented ( well, they are game engines after all... ) so I think that, if you're going to use one of those game engine for visualization, it will be better to do that for a large project ( parts of new cities, landscape visualization, very large scenes ) where you'll have the right amount of time to do all the necessary things...
Use UDK/Unity3D for just an apartment visualization is not worthed ( too much work for something that I don't think you'll be payed that much ), it is much better ( and quick ) to do a video with Vray/Lumion and you're done.
Maybe Quest3D 5.0 will be a very good half-way between a game engine and a visualization engine, who knows :)

I have to take a look at Cryengine 3 because it looks damn good and because probably it will be able to better manage both huge amount of polys and good looking shaders, since the lighting is very very good...I'll try to import a whole scene into the engine and see how it behaves ;)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: endpoint on November 03, 2011, 01:16:14 pm
... will there also be a possibillity to move an object to a certain axes?
Like; only move in X-direction or Y-direction.

Or is this already possible? I didn't find any key shortcuts to do so.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Morten on November 03, 2011, 01:31:40 pm
... will there also be a possibillity to move an object to a certain axes?
Like; only move in X-direction or Y-direction. Or is this already possible?

No, this is currently not possible.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: peterm on November 06, 2011, 10:34:25 pm
Just coming back to the original post/topic.

It is interesting to see this sort of realtime sample.  There's a few around the place.  From time to time I see new companies giving it a go, and of course a few new ones trying out tools like Unity, UDK, and maybe CryEngine or ShiVa.

These sorts of things have been done in Quest3D for years (and in many  case much higher quality), so I wonder is it more a question of the right time, improved features of tool sets or access-re common web browser access etc that will (finally) make this sort of thing more of a reality and allow developers to financially afford to put together quality realtime solutions.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Architectural Innovation on November 22, 2011, 03:02:28 pm
First off...Lumion is an amazing tool and is quickly replacing every other tool in our arsenal for communicating design. Many thanks to the Lumion team for their hard work and dedication.

Through continued research though, I have seen some pretty amazing UDK, Cryengine, etc. examples on youtube that makes me wonder when the inevitable convergence of gaming and visualization software will become more clear cut.


When i looked at process tutorial videos for these others,  the interfaces and processes look complicated. I think the race will be "Lumion -like" programs trying to catch up to the interactivity of the "game engines" vs. "Game engines" catching up to Lumion's simplicity and quickness. I personally love the simplicity of Lumion but long for the full immersive environment to be shared with clients similar to the game experience.

Do you think there will be an option to have stand-alone walk through capabilities in the near future similar to these game engines? I'm guessing it would be a logical progression at some point. I think it would be amazing to be able to hand off a WIP for a client to "walk through" and comment. We can do it now, of course by walking them through the model view but having a viewer in control would be quite impressive.

here are some of the links i was looking at:
Real-Time Neuschwanstein Environment Castle UDK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEdnKJfbPNI#)

UDK - Family House in Realtime 3D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV802r_Pr0k#ws)

Interactive walkthrough using CryEngine 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdxHJcjfCgs#)


looks really cool but tut seems complicated:
Exporting to UDK via Sketchup and HardPCM's Plugin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1bSIbCKsRg#)

wow:
DOF Architectural Animation Reel 2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUmBFZpld_E#ws)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: RT-Visualization on November 22, 2011, 03:36:51 pm
I remember breaking Lumion's staff balls for 1-2 months ( when it was called Silex3D ) because I was complaining about the fact that Lumion was "only" able to make movies and not an .exe  :-D :-D :-D :-D

Right now I think that the only engine capable of making stunning visualization is Cryengine 3, not only because graphically is more advanced, but because it is easier to setup materials, importing, build terrain, manage animations, and so on...and of course to deliver a fully immersive realtime visualization to your customer ( capable of running it on a pretty good pc by the way )
It really kick ass, but then again, is not so easy as Lumion, where you can import directly from 3DS/Maya/Blender into the engine, but you have to do lot of setups for the meshes in order to avoid really annoying problems, and lots of unwrapping...

It just takes time, lot ot time, but the result is worthed :)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: GJWEGNER on November 22, 2011, 07:34:54 pm
UDK & CryEngine have the advantage of global illumination solvers. While not real-time, and rarely is GI ever needed real-time, they do bake in the lightmaps based on the lighting and environment. These engines also have advanced materials & shaders. However, the time commitment and commercial royalty fees are a huge drawback. Once you make over 50k with the software you’re required to pay 25% in royalties(for UDK). This is not based on annual income as previously stated. So, in your 2nd year of business you’ll be losing 25% of your income.

I appreciate Lumion’s dedication to keeping the tools and interface simple. However, I do hope that this concept doesn’t keep them from incorporating more advanced features.

In my experience, I have had very few clients who would be capable of running a standalone .exe with appropriate graphic settings. Having a client run a standalone version of Lumion on its lowest settings is far less impactful than a hi-res video, in my opinion. Generally speaking, my clients prefer videos because they can use them as marketing tools for their websites & social media. As technology progresses, I do see the potential for streaming hi-quality interactive walkthroughs via web players :)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Architectural Innovation on November 22, 2011, 09:38:10 pm
Thanks guys. Good point about the clients, GJWEGNER. The videos are probably the best answer right now.

bob
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Aaron on November 22, 2011, 11:18:26 pm
UDK & CryEngine have the advantage of global illumination solvers. While not real-time, and rarely is GI ever needed real-time, they do bake in the lightmaps based on the lighting and environment.

That's not completely true.
UDK has the famous/infamous lightmass radiosity engine which can produce stunning GI if
you can spare a few hours for the calculations to finish on anything but simple levels.

CryEngine3 on the other hand has genuine (IES certified) RealTime GI.
Quick and dirty compared to UDK's lightmass but it does the job quite nicely nonetheless.

The only thing currently withholding CryEngine3 from taking over the game-engine market is
that CryEngine3 should have been made by Epic, which unfortunately it's not :D


Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: FabioHFernandes on November 24, 2011, 02:57:24 am
T.l.i.t.d. WIP update #5 now in !!CRYENGINE 3!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_IKqjb9TRY#ws)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Pete Stoppel on November 24, 2011, 03:12:52 am
That was amazing, the Titanic lives.

Incredible amount of modeling and texturing went into that.  :o
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: peterm on November 25, 2011, 04:56:04 am
Yes amazing.  Modelling and texturing is massive and massive budget!

Shame they can't make a decent video re the camera is all gameplay and of course that's what it's for, but if it was for viz etc the 'cameraman' would be left with the Titanic.  :-D
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Michael Betke on November 25, 2011, 11:23:13 am
you can do perfect camera movements with cryengine. its like trackview in 3dsmax and path based too. but for this WIP movie they justwalked around ingame. :)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Architectural Innovation on November 25, 2011, 01:29:28 pm
wow and wow.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: RealtimeCG on December 15, 2011, 09:05:58 am
Looks like baked lightmaps, so you can't move/change any light sources without having to bake the lightmaps again. Nice example though, but you have to have to hire them on a per-project basis to get this sort of quality.

Hi everyone.
Morten - you are right we are using baked maps on most of an object, however It is possible to move object and interact with a scene. Another example here:

The Gherkin - Realtime CG Environment Exterior scene (http://vimeo.com/32752095)

I believe Lumion is a great tool, however not fully realtime and restricted.In terms of a cost of an interior visual I'm sure you guys would be amazed how efficient our workflow is.
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: Nico RVArq.com on December 15, 2011, 09:39:13 am
Not, not necessary, You're welcome, for the free publicity.  ;)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: RT-Visualization on December 15, 2011, 10:49:58 am
Hi everyone.
Morten - you are right we are using baked maps on most of an object, however It is possible to move object and interact with a scene. Another example here:

The Gherkin - Realtime CG Environment Exterior scene (http://vimeo.com/32752095)

I believe Lumion is a great tool, however not fully realtime and restricted.In terms of a cost of an interior visual I'm sure you guys would be amazed how efficient our workflow is.


Interesting, that was one of the possibility that I had in mind, use Unity 3D because the workflow is quite smooth...
Did you solve the RNM problem? ( no normal maps on non illuminated surfaces )...last time I checked Unity 3D this was a huge problem because of the visual difference and quality...

Great job by the way ;)
Title: Re: interesting Realtime CG Environment Interior
Post by: blendman on December 15, 2011, 01:06:29 pm
Very nice but somehow it seem very flat.  I have a strong feeling Lumion 2.0 will surpass this and we will all know about this very soon!

Regards,

blendman