Topic: Upgrade vga and cpu compatibility

[luDoc]

Hello to everyone,

i'm writing here because i would like to know if my new vga will be ok with my desktop, and if can benefit from this updating.

here the link with all the information:

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c01585318&cc=us&destPage=document&lc=en&product=3829360&tmp_docname=c01591069

I'm planning to buy a gtx 770 4gb and of course i will change my case and the power supply. I'll add also other 4gb of ram for a 8gb total.

I think the cpu could be ok for the new vga, if i think that lumion uses more the gpu than cpu...but really i would like to know from you if i'm wrong or if this can works... can this graphic card match with my desktop?!

thank you very much for your awaited support!

Federico

[luDoc]

 really i need Help please!

can someone tell me if my cpu (http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c01585318&cc=us&destPage=document&lc=en&product=3829360&tmp_docname=c01585318) can let my gpu (gtx 770 4gb) works good?

IPIBL - LB (BENICIA)
INTEL CORE 2 QUAD Q9400 2.66 GHz

I would like to know if someone tried something similiar and uses this processor...can i try to take the new vga and work with lumion also if my cpu is not so new?!

thanks so much!

[peterm]

Hi luDoc

Act-3D and the staff here on the forum, of course can not make recommendations regarding specific brands, but some forum users may want to contribute their personal views and experiences.

In any consideration of a PC/laptop, please give due consideration to our hardware guide on the forum at LUMION 3: Minimum hardware requirements, and the official info on the Lumion web site - Specifications.

Also, each new version (and updates) can sometimes provide more features that may have a cost of additional processing to run, for example the soon to be increase in Reflection Planes in Lumion 3.1.1.  This means then that like all things, the more power you can get for the budget or if you can extend the budget now rather than in future, the better off you should generally be.

This question would best be responded to by the technical support of the CPU hardware you have (local HP resellers/support).

The NVIDIA GTX770 reports on the net indicate a good performance card, although oyu might want to also consider the GTX780 (but costs more).

The issue with matching new and old hardware is always going to be:
1.  everything runs at the slowest speed
2.  age/hours of use of older hardware - how long before likely fail.

To quote Morten:  "if the CPU isn't fast enough, it will act like a bottleneck which prevents your graphics card from operating at its true potential. In practice, the result of a bottleneck is a lower framerate in Build mode."


It is not just the ability of the CPU, but also the question of the motherboard to support bandwidth.  The speed from the new GPU's is in part because they support higher bandwidths, you will not gain from this due to the limits from the motherboard.

The new GTX700 series supports PCI-e v3 for faster throughput.  However not all CPU's (even some new versions) support this platform, so again, the system will not run at optimum.

I myself have an Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4Ghz.  The motherboard and the CPU are the key reasons I chose to not update the GPU from a 560 to one of the 700 series.  Too old, too slow, no benefit.  But that does not say it would not work and be faster, just not optimised or anywhere near a preferred medium or longer term option.

At end of day, budget will also limit choices.

Please search for recent topics on:
1.  bottleneck - discussions around CPU's limiting the throughput for the graphics card
2.  PCI or Intel or Bridge.

Here a couple of topics covering some of the above:
1.  PC's With GTX 780
2.  GTX Titan on a pci express 2.0 board
3.  Benchmark Results (v3.1.1+)

HTH.

[luDoc]

Hi peterm,

thanks a lot for the answer... unfortunately i wasnt able to see the links you sent me..i dunno why, probably is that a restricted area?

Anyhow i tought a lot about the upgrade an probably i will take a new workstation (with new i7 and motherboard).
Quoting Morten "performance in Build mode (i.e. the framerate) can be adversely affected if your CPU can't keep up with your graphics card though, but it's usually not a problem if you have a modern CPU and graphics card"...so also if my cpu is not so bad i have to consider also the compatibility with the motherboard...and i think i cant risk to spend money for something that i i cant use properly.

But i would like to ask you if you can explain how the gpu works: you said ,quoting Morten, that "the result of a bottleneck is a lower framerate in Build mode"...so when i set my scene both cpu and gpu are working and then the render is managed only by gpu? (i read in the forum from Morten that the "the CPU processor is mainly used for compressing images and MP4s while rendering").

The last thing i would ask you something about the gtx 770.
Is it better the 770 with 4gb or gtx 780 with 3gb?...i tought in lumion to have more gb would have been better, but probably the 780 is optimized to work better.

thank you again so much for your support.

[peterm]

Hi luDoc

Sorry, yep those links were from topics in the licensed user area of the forum.

But i would like to ask you if you can explain how the gpu works: you said ,quoting Morten, that "the result of a bottleneck is a lower framerate in Build mode"...so when i set my scene both cpu and gpu are working and then the render is managed only by gpu? (i read in the forum from Morten that the "the CPU processor is mainly used for compressing images and MP4s while rendering").

Those things are so.
In basics:  most of the work, that is, the ability to work in real-time at reasonable frame rates, and the creation and drawing of 3d scenes is handled by the GPU via the 3d object processing and shaders (after the application has told it what do to).  Lumion also needs the CPU to work well for those things you identified, and also as a software application with instructions to change camera view etc that will affect the FPS etc.  

So, for things like the final rendering of an image or video, the GPU will be doing the work of creating the image, the CPU will be doing tasks not handled by the GPU such as compression, managing the task and saving it to disk.

The last thing i would ask you something about the gtx 770.
Is it better the 770 with 4gb or gtx 780 with 3gb?...i tought in lumion to have more gb would have been better, but probably the 780 is optimized to work better.

Hmm, there is no one or other for that, both factors are important.  The 770 processing specs result in less performance (in some things, not all, and not always noticeable) compared to a 780.  For Lumion, the more VRAM the card has, the better.  But that depends on the scene requirements.  Some will not need much VRAM, others may stress it to max capacity.  In general 4GB of VRAM is better than 3GB as it allows more textures to be directly stored and accessed by the GPU without having to employ other slower steps.

There's a lot of difficult decisions, especially when you would like to retain more recently purchased components.  Have been there myself,  read: still there, it's an on-going process.  

HTH.

[Morten]

Hi luDoc, a rough rule of thumb is that the CPU and the GPU determine the framerate in Build mode and Movie/Photo previews, i.e. all real-time 3D views (including Lumion Viewer).

However, the GPU has a much bigger impact than the CPU on render times while rendering images/movies.

[davidmiller]

great information.thanks for keeping me update.....

[SpOoOoKy]

Help!
I'm assembling a new Haswell PC and i have some doubts.
I'm planning to associate a GPU with a i5-4670k and overclocked to 4.2 / 4.5 GHz.

GTX 660Ti  (1344 CudaCores / BusWidth 192-bit )  185 Euro
       760    (1152 CC           / BW          256-bit )  200
       670    (1344 CC           / BW          256-bit )  255

All have 2GB of memory.
The 670 is a little out of my budget.
Whictch is more imposrtan for the render time?
Cuda Cores or BusWidth ?

[peterm]

Hi

The more CC the more processors available to perform operations, much like for the CPU the more cores the better.

So, in short: cores.

However, that is only one factor in the performance of the GPU and also only one in how well it operates with Lumion and Windows.  Bus Width, core clock frequencies, speed and quality of VRAM, amount of VRAM is important for Lumion etc.  Bus Width is important to how quickly data can be passed to and from the rest of the system and the demands for that would depend on the nature of the data being passed, for example lots of small packets for something where there are only small changes in data, or large packets - eg changing of camera views.

If you need to try and assess whether the Ti is better than the 670 then have a look at Passmark: Videocard Benchmarks and also hardware testing results from places like tomshardware.

My view is the more cores the better, plus the more VRAM for extending size/complexity of scenes, the better, then everything else in terms of performance.  Plus one critical ingredient often overlooked - quality of components, like RAM; not all GPU's are the same even though they have the same product type.

For the system, PCI v3 (so third gen+ motherboard and CPU), again depending on budget etc.

So, a 670 is preferred over a 660 or 760 and a 770 over a 760.  Perhaps as the CPU does not play such a major role as the GPU, then you might consider spending a little less on the CPU, something less than the new Haswells, and more on the GPU.  This depends on what other uses you intend for the PC such as CAD, SkUp etc.

What differences and improvements come from the Haswell compared to the i5/i7 3700 series?

[SpOoOoKy]

Thanks for the answer.

I need a good CPU since i use Sketchup that use only the CPU.
Can't afford the i7, becouse i thougt to invest the 90 Euro extra for the GPU,
so im going for the i5 OC at 4.2 / 4.5 GHz.
I can find the 4670K at the same price of the 3570K.
And the MoBo of the Haswall cost about 5 to 10 Euro more but is a ASUS z87-A 1150 (105 Euro) vs the ASROCK FATAL1TY Z77 PERFORMANCE 1155 (100 Euro)
I prefere ASUS.

Back to my question.
I still don't understand what will benefit more the renderdering time of Lumion 3.
Is better to have more CudaCores or BusWidth?

More Cuda Cores +192 of the 660Ti or
More Bus Width +64 of the 760.
Both are ASUS DC2.
.
Will i see benefits if i spend 15 Euro more for the 760 for the +64 Bus Width but less -192 Cuda Cores
or is better the 660Ti that has more + 192 Cuda Cores but less Bus Width -64?
So the question is:
(+192 CC ; -64BW) 660 Ti  vs 760 (-192CC ; +64BW ) +15 Euro?

Considering that the 670 is out of my budget?

Thanks again.

[peterm]

Hi

Sorry but I just don't think you can narrow down performance and thus the decision to buy based on two features of a GPU.  In addition there's no right or wrong answer if the performance is similar - one may be faster in some situations, the other one faster in different situations.

If you need to then you should seek technical advice from a GPU technical expert or from the relevant GPU forums.

If you look at the Passmarks, the 760 has a better pass than the 660Ti, but the samples are quite different, so that's only as of now.

The 760 has a faster clock speed, so surely that must be included in the criteria for what affects the performance.

A Google search picks up some topics that might assist in your decision:
1.  Imprtance of CUDA cores vs Bit-rate
2.  CUDA cores and memory interface width...Help understand their relation.
3.  look at the specs summary at Wikipedia:  Comparison of Nvidia graphics processing units.
4.  looks at NVIDIA's relative performance charts


Appreciate these decisions are hard, as you want the best you can, and it's not easy.  If you asked for an unqualified opinion on which card will do better with Lumion, then I would respond that maybe the 760 has the edge based on current information such as Passmark, not because of the cores or the bus width, but because current users have experienced (in the uses they have whatever that mix of applications and gaming etc may be), that it seems to run things roughly 7% faster.

From one of those links a comment "Since nobody is capable of replacing/upgrading the memory architecture on a card they buy, it makes exactly zero sense to single it out as a performance factor any more important than cores, ROPs, fill rate or anything else."

Some of the other posts make for further lively debate, but one important consideration, if the bus cannot support the cores then bus width becomes important, and that only depends on what is thrown at it.

Unfortunately we do not have any Lumion Benchmark results for a GTX 760.

What I also think is important is to consider the likely types and complexity of scenes you are likely to encounter.  Will they push the limits of Lumion and the GPU, or will they fit easily within the boundaries.  We have users with quite limited hardware but are happy because the scenes they do work within the boundaries, other users are pushing the limits to the extreme with Titans.

[Xtreme-L]

i7 3770 k
660 ti
32 ram
all brand names.this is a cool decision and the prize almost fine

[SpOoOoKy]

i7 3770 k
660 ti
32 ram
all brand names.this is a cool decision and the prize almost fine

Like the idea of the i7, was thinking to go for the 4770K,
but is 90 Euro out of my budget.
The ram, 32Gb, is to mutch for my needs at the moment.

I have 8Gb now and have never gone out of 6 Gb during the renderinf and working,
but i'm considering to add another 8Gb in the future.

And i'm not even considering to take a SSD, it will be 80 Euro more.
Here in Europe the electronic prices are way more expensive than in USA  .
And there are no discounts for PC components.
Anyone know an US site who ship in Italy ?

Thanks anyway.
And other sugestion are more than welcome.

[castrocosta]

My CPU:
Windows 7 64bits
Intel Core I7 CPU 930 @ 2.80GHz
4GB RAM DDR3 corsair
GeForce GTS 250 1Gb

I had problems while rendering, my GPU simply stoped, crushed at 10 seconds rendering..
I am thinking about doing an upgrade, like changing the GTS 250 for an GTX TITAN and add more 4 to 8 GB RAM. I work with very complex scenes, with interior design and external architecture in the same model and my videos should have 2 minutes at least.

Is it going to work fine ?? or should i change my i7 2.80 for an Intel® Core™ i7-4930K Processor (12M Cache, up to 3.90 GHz)

I'm really not expecting to spend mor money, hoping that changing my GPU and RAM is enough.

Thankss....

[peterm]

Hi castrocosta

The GTS 250 only has a Passmark of 906 which is well below minimum recommended specs.  However for some scenes that may still be workable if follow some of the LUMION 3: How to reduce render times and also manage things with layers and also use of the Low Memory Setting.

More RAM definitely, probably 16GB would be a better platform.  The Titan is a beast, but you will not get the full benefit as your system is PCI v2 or less, but it may still sing.  You might want to consider the GTX 780 (3GB) which is much more affordable and performance and specs very good (except it would be nice to see a 4GB VRAM model in the market (will happen)), and close to Titan.  This would let you spend some more on RAM and maybe that upgraded CPU.

The current i7 930 is a (pre Sandy Bridge) Bloomfield type CPU.  You would need to also change your motherboard to support an i7 4th generation Ivy Bridge CPU.  Both Titan and 700 series are PCI v3 which means they will work best with PCI v3 systems - 4th gen Ivy Bridge CPU's and motherboards.  They also support older PCI systems but you don't get the benefit and may in some cases end up with bandwidth issues and also bottleneck issues with older CPU's and wondering why this powerful GPU is not living up to expectations.

If you can't change CPU and m/bd I don't see much benefit in spending heaps on the new GPU's.  You would be best to do a small incremental upgrade and then budget for later on to a new swept up system.  So some more RAM and maybe something like a GTX 580 or GTX 660/Ti.