Author Topic: My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion  (Read 19292 times)

My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2011, 12:27:00 pm »
January 06, 2011, 12:27:00 pm
You raised some very valid points above… at the moment, this is the thread I look most forward to revisiting in the morning.

I think we can all agree that array-based objects such as fences, hedges etc would definitely benefit from a line editor.

Regarding road construction kits, links to other solutions like ModNation and Instant Road for SketchUp are very inspiring and present a completely different perspective than hardcore infrastructure software like Civil 3D. Given enough income from Lumion sales it might speed things up a bit if we licensed parts of existing software and combined that with your requirements (like the customizable 2D road section idea), just like we've done with SpeedTree in the past, so keep those links coming… This is just my personal opinion though, and it's easy enough for me to say as I'm not the one who would have to do the hard work Smile
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Aaron

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2011, 01:03:39 pm »
January 06, 2011, 01:03:39 pm
Take your time guys. With so many possibilities and options to choose from, I'm sure you'll choose wisely.

No hard feelings whatsoever if this means the road-editor won't be ready for release before early next week Wink

Ferry

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2011, 01:13:01 pm »
January 06, 2011, 01:13:01 pm
It is not hard for us to make tools to make fences really easy to place. Just like the space function right now.

Gabriel

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2011, 02:31:42 pm »
January 06, 2011, 02:31:42 pm
The big architecture softwares that are on the market and by them i mean Revit, Allplan and Archicad (as the rest are not architecture oriented, or not worth mentioning... erm except for maybe Chief architect, good software but less known) have procedural railings. With them you can make almost anything that is repeating like fences, railroads, streets, etc etc.

They are however dificult to master, and allthough you can do almost anything with them there is a lot of invested time in doing what you need. I've seen some impressive results with Revit's family objects. Still, hard to master and i'm not such a Revit fan anyway.

As lumion is going for allready baked, maked, textured, moved, sized object area i am very happy as it takes away hours of needless work and puts them into creativity and design thinking, which are way more important for a architect than rotating trees, texturing hills and mountains and other tedious, boring tasks.

As for Civil 3D it looks nice, but seems very advanced, and maybe what lumion will do in 5 years or so regarding roads. I think we all here want just basic, generic roads around buildings, not even hardly textured like the ones you worked on. They only have to have sidewalks, borders and street lanes, that's it, and you may draw them like lines, straight or curved. Also they may be modified afterwards by drag and drop or similar sistem.

As for tunnels, huge road bridges, highways, railroads and many more crazy stuff like that... I guess projects that imply such great endeavours are pretty rare, and for that matter you can model yourself, import from google warehouse or buy advanced software like civil 3D and import them to lumion.

Gabriel

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2011, 03:23:55 pm »
January 06, 2011, 03:23:55 pm
I had some time having fun with the demo from city engine here http://www.procedural.com/city...../2010.html  I was mostly interested in how it handles roads.

I'll take the trial from Civil 3D to see how it compares. Still, if it's from Autodesk i think you need serious training before using it. I am prepared for a waterfall of menus one inside another... 300 menus would probably suffice to make a 2 lane street with sidewalks :))))))

Ferry

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« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2011, 04:58:52 pm »
January 06, 2011, 04:58:52 pm
:P Exactly the opposite thinking method we used for Lumion

mischa

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2011, 05:06:21 pm »
January 06, 2011, 05:06:21 pm
Hi Gabriel,

 

you are telling many true and interesting things (but some of the things you said had a bit a self-opinionated touch speaking bout 3d gurus and non architects). But please also accept that there are people who sometimes need a higher quality as you can momentarily achieve with Lumion even if they are like you architects! I am an interior designer and architect, so I often need very realistic renderings for demonstrating the quality of materials and so on. I mainly use Lumion for realtime presentations to walk around with the customer and sometime if I have  very shortdeadline and wanna have a movie. I agree with you that is is fun to work in Lumion and very easy to model landscape. That s why I would love sometimes to export my landscape and roads(?) to render them in higher quality in 3ds Max. Sometimes you need to model something according to the landscape, it would be nice to do that in 3ds max on the Lumion landscape object.

Gabriel

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2011, 11:10:02 pm »
January 06, 2011, 11:10:02 pm
Hi Mischa. Please do not take it personally. By no means i was trying to be offensive. Maybe my english is mocking me sometimes and other things are understood from what i say. What i was trying to say is that max (v-ray) and lumion are two different worlds. In my opinion, at least for now they serve different purposes. Also, as I stated before, the max format being closed, nobody can export to it. 

 

Secondly in my experience with exports, most of the times things happen wrong. And when they do, the hard work to repair commences. 

 

To better ilustrate what i'm saying please look at the following link: http://lumion3d.com/forum/gall.....cene-test/

 

Now you may see there is a v-ray render and a lumion render. I do not know about your clients but most clients i met require way lower quality than both of that renders. Frankly, most renders i've seen in architecture offices around here look, way, way worse than both. Still, there is no complain from the clients. Most of them want to see their future building as it may look, size, shape, materials, have a look around it, see some interiors, a walthrough would also be excellent. Most of the times I just showed my clients the raw 3Dmodel in allplan, not even textured, then made modifications after discutions and better renderings.

 

Now there's lumion, a tool to show close to reality (but not reality or better than reality like v-ray) projects. It is fast, it's cheap, it produces good results, and will be improved. After all it's very new technology in the field. In the example above you have a image rendered in 5 seconds and a image rendered in 25 minutes. I don't know about you, but if i'd be autodesk i won't be comfortable at all. I bet they're gonna come up with their own GPU rendered solution pretty soon. Or they'll buy Lumion or Twinmotion and triple the price. Twinmotion seems more like it as those guys have great love for clicking and thousands of little to no use functions and menus.

 

 I say just that: 5 seconds -25 minutes. Difference? Some pretty shinings of materials and way better light and shadow from GI. Trust me, most normal clients won't even know the difference looking at those two pictures. They'll say they're both beautiful.

 

If i'd be lumion staff i will concentrate all my efforts into still renders and interior renders. I would come up with a GI solution for still renders only, ontop of what it renders now. I would increase the  time required for GI still renders. A time of 2-3 minutes for a still render but with GI support would be very competitive. After all until now most people were testing their patience with hours of rendering. After that, there would be no competition at all. They will not be able to compete with that, because of the speed of work and realtime visualisation, the thing that is missing in a v-ray like solution.

 

There is another thing that nobody talks about.  How many pre renders do you make till you get the best from v-ray? 10? 20? 100? How much testing is needed to see if the materials made are the color and type you desire? How much per each render in draft mode? 2 mins maybe? So add hours of useless rendering to those 25 mins. In Lumion what you see is what you get and that my friend is a CPU render killer.

 

What i would also like to add is that i saw tons of wonderful v-ray images. But frankly, i look behind pretty glimpses and lightning.I saw superb images of well.. houses... ugly houses. Yet some think that by making superb pictures of movies somehow the client will leave the studio with a big smile and will agree to all the solution, no matter what that is. I say they are losing focus, as the main focus is the final REAL result. I made some buildings in my time, i know the difference between superb computer generated pictures and reality. They do not fool me. Sadly most of the time people are trying to impress more with effects and beautiful lighting than with what is really about in those pictures, that is, sadly, architecture. 

mischa

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2011, 12:35:48 am »
January 07, 2011, 12:35:48 am
Hi Gabriel,

 

you are right that we don t allways need high end renderings. In architectural competitions I often use, lets say, something like a comic style. What concerns the smiling customer... Well after all we wanna sell something, why not by blending him a bit with effects? Don t tell me you allways show your customers the ugly areas of your houses Wink...

 

and yes I am doing many prerenderings.

Lumion is quick in rendering and the quality is in comparison of time unbeatable. But what concerns GPu rendering you are wrong. 3ds max has 2 new GPU renderers, but I am not so experienced with them, the first tries I did weren t so satisfying for me. Vray has also a realtime GPU renderer (I just downloaded the demo), can t tell you more about that, because I am normally working with mental ray, which has also a new GPU renderer.

 

So for quick movies Lumion is the first choice. But I can t agree that the quality difference isn t possible to see for "normal" people. There are big differences, like the reflections for example, which are a big problem. In Lumion they are just a cubic map, what is looking ok in realtime, but not allways in movies. The lighting is nice, but the material effects are restricted, I agree that that will be improved in future.

 

The possibility of animations are also very restricted (at the moment). When I am showing interior design I sometimes show different lightnings of  a room. Or I animate objects, like open doors and things like that.

After my opinion at the moment the strength of Lumion is the realtim engine. The customers love to walk around and through their houses and that they can decide where to walk and look and that in a great quality! I hope the lumion team will also work on this part, so that we will have collision detection for the ground and the possibility to export an exe file.

Don t get me wrong, I love Lumion, but at that stage I can t agree that the rendering quality of stills and movies is comparable to 3ds Max or other 3D Software packages like Maya or Cinema. As you say that are two diffrent worlds, each with pros and cons. But Lumion is the funnier part Smile !

 

What concerns the export problem: you are totally right. It will not be easy to export the landscape as a good mesh....

The Max format is closed, yes, but max and other software packages can import many formats, so that won t be the problem... 

Gabriel

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2011, 03:40:43 am »
January 07, 2011, 03:40:43 am
mischa said:

you are right that we don t allways need high end renderings. In architectural competitions I often use, lets say, something like a comic style. What concerns the smiling customer... Well after all we wanna sell something, why not by blending him a bit with effects? Don t tell me you allways show your customers the ugly areas of your houses Wink...


Well let's say i try to keep the "ugly parts" at a minimum :)) And yes, usualy you don't really wanna show the ugly parts. I've met some architects that used to make only still images in great looking areas, so that the client would be happy for the moment and accept the "rear ugly solutions" If real time walking through the building would be possible in lumion, they would be out of business :))))) 


 

and yes I am doing many prerenderings.

Lumion is quick in rendering and the quality is in comparison of time unbeatable. But what concerns GPu rendering you are wrong. 3ds max has 2 new GPU renderers, but I am not so experienced with them, the first tries I did weren t so satisfying for me. Vray has also a realtime GPU renderer (I just downloaded the demo), can t tell you more about that, because I am normally working with mental ray, which has also a new GPU renderer.

 

So for quick movies Lumion is the first choice. But I can t agree that the quality difference isn t possible to see for "normal" people. There are big differences, like the reflections for example, which are a big problem. In Lumion they are just a cubic map, what is looking ok in realtime, but not allways in movies. The lighting is nice, but the material effects are restricted, I agree that that will be improved in future.

 


About that, I think the reflections are not ok. Not they are not good, they're ok but the problem is they are too big and not always reflect what they're supposed to reflect. Dunno maybe i'm wrong but in my tests it looked that way. For example in a interior rendering if you put an interior mirror, it reflects the trees outside.... even if it should reflect the objects INSIDE the room.. again maybe I am wrong. Also I think the reflections are huge compared to what they should be... Think a dev could tell us more on that...


 

The possibility of animations are also very restricted (at the moment). When I am showing interior design I sometimes show different lightnings of  a room. Or I animate objects, like open doors and things like that.

After my opinion at the moment the strength of Lumion is the realtim engine. The customers love to walk around and through their houses and that they can decide where to walk and look and that in a great quality! I hope the lumion team will also work on this part, so that we will have collision detection for the ground and the possibility to export an exe file.

Don t get me wrong, I love Lumion, but at that stage I can t agree that the rendering quality of stills and movies is comparable to 3ds Max or other 3D Software packages like Maya or Cinema. As you say that are two diffrent worlds, each with pros and cons. But Lumion is the funnier part Smile !


Yea, now that we're taking about that I propose a rifle and some grenades for the customers, and some LAN support also would be nice. They would love to shoot each other in their own future to be house :)))) Erm.. joke.. of course :))))))


 

What concerns the export problem: you are totally right. It will not be easy to export the landscape as a good mesh....

The Max format is closed, yes, but max and other software packages can import many formats, so that won t be the problem... 

 


Totally agree, but i've tested most of them and there are always exporting problems in most of the formats. Especially for very large scenes as the ones lumion provides, or for complicated objects like the detailed buildings an architect needs.  I've got some good results with fbx though and collada files. Luckily lumion has collada support. 3ds nah... bad. And the problem i stated before remains... How do you export the other great moving things lumion provides... there's no way... And there is the other problem with alpha made trees... they never export well.. as far as i've seen. Although I might be wrong... not to much testing here...



Gabriel

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2011, 04:06:20 am »
January 07, 2011, 04:06:20 am
Also I would like to point out to this little tool... I get by it by mistake surfing the net... Anyone knows anything bout it? Seems to be very raw, but in the simple area... 

http://www.youtube.com/ADSKInf.....6lEq-WJqGo

Ferry

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2011, 09:20:08 am »
January 07, 2011, 09:20:08 am
Well we will try over the coming years to approach the render quality of non real-time more and more of course. Up until a level that almost none can see the difference unless you are an expert!

mischa

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2011, 09:40:27 am »
January 07, 2011, 09:40:27 am
Gabriel,

what concerns the reflections of the trees and the big reflections. With the new version of Lumion that should be better a bit. You can know decide which objects should be reflected and only from which distance. Did not test this new function yet.

Images with alpha mask are working good. In the gallery I showed one sample of my first test I did in Lumion just at the beginning of Lumion, where I added several billboard people.

Ola Stian

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2011, 01:09:04 pm »
January 07, 2011, 01:09:04 pm
This guy http://www.unityterraintools.com/ has made a exellent tool for roads and side objects for Unity. Having something like this for Lumion would be a killer feature both for roads and to make rivers.

Gabriel

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My wishlist - conclusions regarding Lumion
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2011, 08:03:29 pm »
January 07, 2011, 08:03:29 pm
mischa said:

Images with alpha mask are working good. In the gallery I showed one sample of my first test I did in Lumion just at the beginning of Lumion, where I added several billboard people.

 


I agree. What I was saying is that allthough the alpha mapped trees look awesome in lumion when exporting them to other formats they would most likely not look the same. From my previous tests with other softwares, they never looked the same as they looked in the software they were originally made. (if alpha mapped)

Therefore I greatly encourage to have all the things in one place. Importing/exporting as I allready stated before is bound to errors and a lot of extra work usually. That's why I encourage lumion team to get better still render results, and not put their work into exporting. Lumion should be made the final destination of the work, not "another tool" or plugin.