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Author Topic: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!  (Read 11713 times)

Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 07:24:51 pm »
February 15, 2012, 07:24:51 pm
I'm curious, is there any thought being given to adding fake refraction of objects in water, in Lumion?

Assuming these are 6x6 tiles, those below the water line would typically look like 3x6 tiles, due to the viscosity/density and nature of water.

So you mean physically correct refraction then - as opposed to faking it with a bit of animated distortion as Lumion and most other real-time 3D engines do achieve this effect?

Raytraced reflections/refractions are currently not really a practical option in real-time 3D (unless you have very small scenes).

I guess we have to wait for the graphics card manufacturers to add hardware-accelerated raytracing functionality. But until then, we have to fake it :)
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Nico RVArq.com

    Reputation: 58
Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 07:46:23 pm »
February 15, 2012, 07:46:23 pm
Are this floor with raytraced reflections or is is a cube map like in Lumion??
Because I don´t get even the 10% of quality of this image upload, so What is exactly the same?? I see inferior programs than Lumion, like Lumenrt offer realtime reflections, and don´t understand why we have to wait for the development of more graphic.
I've noticed as of version 1 to version 2, the average render times have gone from 6-7 to 9-10 seconds per frame. It would not be feasible to assess such an effect that anyone who wants to incorporate it assuming the increase in render times?

Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 11:23:46 pm »
February 15, 2012, 11:23:46 pm
Those are planar reflections where you render everything twice.

There's more information here:
http://lumion3d.com/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg20705#msg20705
IMPORTANT: Please do not send private messages and emails to members of staff - unless we specifically ask you to send us sensitive information, for example License Keys.

yak

    Reputation: 0
Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 11:34:55 pm »
February 15, 2012, 11:34:55 pm
I was simply interested in the aspect of how far  "physically correct refraction Faking", could be taken in Lumion, without the added overhead of Raytraced reflections/refractions as they currently apply in most applications. I thought maybe Lumion's programmers were on the verge of discovering a new Algorithm  :-D

p.s. sorry for interfering with the original topic

Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 12:26:24 am »
February 16, 2012, 12:26:24 am
Are this floor with raytraced reflections or is is a cube map like in Lumion??
Because I don´t get even the 10% of quality of this image upload, so What is exactly the same?? I see inferior programs than Lumion, like Lumenrt offer realtime reflections, and don´t understand why we have to wait for the development of more graphic.
I've noticed as of version 1 to version 2, the average render times have gone from 6-7 to 9-10 seconds per frame. It would not be feasible to assess such an effect that anyone who wants to incorporate it assuming the increase in render times?

We opted for reflection maps because it's really the only technique which works on all objects. What you see here is achieved by mirroring the scene in the reflection plane and rendering everything again. To prevent objects from sticking out a clip plane is used. The reflected scene is rendered to a texture and used on the ground surface for example to create the final image. The problem with this method is that it halves performance but some times it's worth it and you just have to make sure you don't have too many reflecting planes.

I don't think the render times have gone up. The ssoa and material are faster. The deferred method makes some shaders slower but it depends on the scene if the final render time is slower or faster. Adding lights makes things slower but that's quite logical. For final render the reflection map is slower but that's because it contains more now and has more accuracy. For final renders we only calculate it once so it shouldn't influence performace too much.

On the subject of the planar reflections... I think we'll make it happen at some point but we haven't had the chance yet. If we do it proprely it can even be faster than the current method. A reflection map contains 6 images and if you have only 1 reflective plane you could theoretically render with only 1 image.

Physically correct refractions won't happen if without any form of ray tracing. Only very simple distortions can be emulated using rasterization.

Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 12:36:38 am »
February 16, 2012, 12:36:38 am
I think that ray-tracing is closer than we think. A recent paper on cone tracing changed my mind. The paper uses a huge sparse voxel tree to fit the entire scene but in theory you could render the voxel tree on the fly for every frame and have more resolution near the camera so you can fit huge scenes in relatively small amount of memory. I think it's a brilliant combination of rasterization and a rough form of ray tracing with great potential. We'll have to see how this turns out but it could be enough for plausible reflections, refractions, ao and indirect lighting.

sach

    Reputation: 17
Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2012, 12:42:12 am »
February 16, 2012, 12:42:12 am
The real question is:  Will Lumion be able to render reflection like this scene?

And will there be some kind of transparency for meterials else than glass?

sach

    Reputation: 17
Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2012, 12:44:51 am »
February 16, 2012, 12:44:51 am
The real question is:  Will Lumion be able to render reflection like this scene?

And will there be some kind of transparency for meterials else than glass?

I'm buying Lumion Ultimate tomorrow and i would feel very, very bad if i would never be able to get reflection out of it.

Gilson Antunes

    Reputation: 130
Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2012, 12:48:41 am »
February 16, 2012, 12:48:41 am
As I understand it, the issue of improving transparency would come with the new DirectX.

Is that right?
Gilson Antunes
www.gilsonantunes.com.br
RTX 2080Ti / Win7 / (TM) i7-6700K CPU @ 4,00GHz / RAM 64Gb DDR-4 / SSD 1,5Tb

ali rahimi shahmirzadi

    Reputation: 1
Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2012, 01:29:33 am »
February 16, 2012, 01:29:33 am
The Reflection which you are see on sam center project is practical because that project was forward render. For deferred render its much more complicated. There are only 3 practical way in my mind for a proper reflection with a deferred engine.
1. screen space reflection which is buggy but its better than nothing. DX9

2. Using DX 10 or 11
3. very very optimize scene management to overcome performance issue. DX9
Refraction is not a big issue.

We will go for a combination of SSR and cubemap. AAA games like crysis2 are using all sorts of combination. they separate outdoor from indoor lighting.

Nico RVArq.com

    Reputation: 58
Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2012, 09:07:40 am »
February 16, 2012, 09:07:40 am
Once again it seems that I screw up.  |:(
The whole idea that before render times ranged from 6/7 seconds per frame, and now I can not down of 9 sec. But I have opened a scene Lumion Lumion 1 in 2 and here are the times. And apparently there is no further discussion, Lumion 2.1 is faster. Sorry Remko.

Nico RVArq.com

    Reputation: 58
Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2012, 10:01:42 am »
February 16, 2012, 10:01:42 am
Ok, this is my best attempt of quality resoult to achieve a mirror with ball reflection.
This is impossible to achieve a reflection for the floor. And the smaller the mirror, the better resoult.  :-D :-D
Upload video and images.
And by the way, thanks Ali, for all your comments and explanations of your remarkable work.

julian boswell

    Reputation: 0
Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2012, 05:27:39 pm »
February 16, 2012, 05:27:39 pm
Lumion handles reflections/refractions much better than even cryengine 3.  Especially glass reflections.

Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 05:49:21 pm »
February 16, 2012, 05:49:21 pm
Lumion handles reflections/refractions much better than even cryengine 3.  Especially glass reflections.

Cryengine uses static reflection maps. The idea is simple: you place a probe somewhere, grab a cube map and use it. We could do the same in Lumion but we want it to update dynamically.

For planar reflections they use the technique described below.

Unless something really disappointing happens I guess we will be able to deliver fine planar reflections with bumpmaps and all in Lumion at some point. No planning yet but it's sort of obvious we have to do it. I always have some research going on here and there just for future developments and curiosity. I was recently looking at better, faster ssao and correct transparency. My conclusion is that correct layers of glass is very doable. Rendering semi transparent layers is more difficult because of performance issue. The big problem is that for each layer of translucent materials we have to do the complete lighting again. Maybe it's smarter to optimize the lighting first. This would also help with reflections. In architecture we have a lot of opertunities to optimize. The lights are often static and so is the model. I was think about something like this:

 - first make a list of all the light cones that penetrate the view and ignore all others.
 - Use static shadow maps as default for all lights
 - If a light is very small or far away, just render without shadow maps
 - When a light moves or something in it's view moves recalculate the shadow map
    - For each light build a list of lights within the light cone.
    - Only render those object that are in, moved in or moved out the light cone.

In most practical situations this would mean the rendering is very fast. Lights rarely move and objects too so in 99% of the cases a cached version can be used. For a big building usually only a small percentage of lights is in view so that's another oppertunity to optimize. The ideal solution is occlusion culling but that would be really hard. In full quality render mode we should be able to create a buffer wich contains all visible lights so in the 15 consecutive passes invisible lights will be ignored.


BMcIsaac

Re: Free Radical Engine - Hire this guy!
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 07:58:50 pm »
February 16, 2012, 07:58:50 pm
Quote
Unless something really disappointing happens I guess we will be able to deliver fine planar reflections with bumpmaps and all in Lumion at some point. No planning yet but it's sort of obvious we have to do it.

Oh Yes!!

By the way...sorry to distract... a lot of Sketchup users have a copy of Thea....you can quickly bake your textures there and the resulting normals seem to pop very well.
It is easy to adjust the Thea sun to a neutral overhead that casts very good shading.
works really well for any horizontal surfaces. Takes a couple of extra minutes.