Author Topic: About the stock asset quality  (Read 8730 times)

About the stock asset quality
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2011, 03:08:28 pm »
February 07, 2011, 03:08:28 pm
Aaron said:

@Morten > No problem whatsoever. LOD support would be great but as far as detail amount I think the current product suffices in all but the more extreme cases. Right now if and when I run out of memory it's because of the 32-bit instead of my gpu-mem and it's amazing how much stuff you can actually cramp in that space already, let alone when the 64-bit version will be released eventually.

I also agree with grincheux that the team shouldnt waste any resources beyond the most desired items on assets (still a little bit cross about Angelina not making it in though Cool) since it will never satisfy everyone. Let the community take care of that when the need arrises.





We have a plan for involving the community more, but more about that later Smile

I too mourn the loss of Angelina - I'm sure she would have loved life in sunny Lumion land. There's even a bunch of kids she and Brad could adopt (they're exceedingly well behaved and won't run away, mainly because their feet are glued to the ground) Cool
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Michael Betke

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2011, 09:57:41 pm »
February 07, 2011, 09:57:41 pm
Thanks for your time to answer to this post Mortem. It shows the excellent support for your product. :)

First of all I'm well aware of the constraints real-time applications have and I also stated that a good amount of assets are usable and they are the main reason why I licensed Lumion3d. I won't be able to produce them for the same costs so investing in Lumion was a logical step. The other reason was product support and movie creation possibilities which are ahead of the real-time engine I also use.

 

Before I get the bad guy of the forum ;) my intention was to give feedback to the team and a statement about the quality of the models which can be improved like even a galvanic texture for a traffic sign to make it looking believable or a coherent style of cars with simple modeled rims.

I understand the decisions you have to do for art services. Every person who outsources have to make them. In my impression some of those decisions are not traceable from my point of view and as both - a 3d asset vendor and customer - I'm feeling in the position to be able to judge about it.

For me I think paying 500 USD for a AAA animated human 3D model with two basic animations is not much. I got offers for the same work from other freelancers which quoted 1.700.  Even if it's much for some people there are sites like AXYZ-design which offer good quality models including mo-cap animations. I bought there and got a full library under 1000 USD and a polycount of 3500 tris per human model which is suitable in my opinion. I can pass you on some contacts of my freelancers I work with. Most work in game-dev studios or visualization companies so they are available for part-time but not full-time.

Outsorcing companies usually want a lot of money. No idea why. Maybe they want to make quick cash or just have higher costs to cover because of their working environment. Problem with Turbosquid is incoherent style if you buy from several different vendors and the people just put the royalties on top of their product in most cases.

Mostly I do a strict art-document for my freelancers or even supply a sample model for them so they know what I have in mind.

It worked out very well so far. :)

 

So basically I'm happy with Lumion vegetation (but have also a lot made by myself), vehicles, people for distant shots and populating and props. :)
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Ferry

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2011, 10:08:53 pm »
February 07, 2011, 10:08:53 pm
Our characters where the most expensive asset we have. We also had the mocap created which was also not that great. Of course characters are of main importance. We discussed using AXYZ design models but they asked a hefty fee for using in Lumion and we didn't like their models that much. Remeber that we can't buy a model for 500 dollar and then put it in Lumion!

 

Though if you are able to deliver high quality human animating models for something like 500 dollar for use in Lumion lets discuss that!

About the stock asset quality
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2011, 12:38:28 pm »
February 08, 2011, 12:38:28 pm
Michael,

I'm not sure if you have noticed this but in every single shop where you can buy Axyz characters there's a link to a custom Axyz Design license which prevents you from redistributing the characters/motion capture animations in any shape or form. It doesn't matter how much you modify them or protect them in proprietary archives – it's simply not allowed.

We actually negotiated for a long time with the owner of Axyz Design regarding a special redistribution license in the hope that we could use the latest characters (the ones that use up to 8,000 faces), but as Ferry already mentioned the cost was unreasonable in terms of what we would be getting (We would have had to use the oldest characters which unfortunately look very dated by today's standards). And other suppliers such as RocketBox wanted ludicrous amounts of money, so in the end we had no choice but to outsource the job of creating the characters to a team of freelancers.

Regarding the road signs, each sign is using 1 small texture to keep the number of Draw Calls as low as possible and the uniform grey pole colour is in fact included in the corner of each texture. Sure, we could either add a galvanized tiling metal texture to the texture atlas and use more texture memory per sign, or we could split each sign in 2 separate surfaces/materials and suffer a performance penalty for extra Draw Calls. Either way, the point is that more details and better quality always come at a cost. In this case, we chose optimum performance, and there is of course nothing wrong with requesting higher quality. But claiming that hundreds of models in the collection were unusable + calling for modellers to be sacked was probably not the best way to get our attention Wink

That being said, you can be 100% sure that the quality of the object library will improve and that the collection will expand over the coming months and years.

So, to briefly return to the specifics of your requests, I have made a note that you would like more detailed wheel trims/hub caps as well as steel textures for the road signs. The quality of the 3D characters has been discussed elsewhere and as Aaron mentioned, we also agreed that there was room for improvement.

I hope this addresses your concerns but do let us know if you have any other questions/requests.
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Stio

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2011, 01:15:53 pm »
February 08, 2011, 01:15:53 pm
Maybe I'm off topic. But I had experience in Anark and know very well how hard it is to create a suitable stage at the same time not overloading the video card. Limitations on how many nodes in Direct makes it difficult to execute. I agree that we should not focus on an object - and allow users to share high polygonal content. This will solve the issue with a license for such a model:) Suppose a client decides to upload his model of the scene or not.

Michael Betke

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2011, 01:32:25 pm »
February 08, 2011, 01:32:25 pm
Yes custom licenses can be tricky. I also had talks with Rocketbox (great library) and they made a good offer which was very suiteable - but not affordable at the point where my young company was some time ago.

 

I also started to import my own vegetation sets from my shop and other models from my library and they look very good.

 

I miss two sided alpha-materials, not the trick whith duplicated and flipped faces, so I really would prefer this feature before modeled rims on your list. ;)
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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2011, 02:18:30 pm »
February 08, 2011, 02:18:30 pm
Apart from the price tag + royalties, I only had 1 problem with the RocketBox characters: Some of the faces looked a tad hand-made in my opinion. Their new HD characters however can easily compete with the latest Metropoly 3 characters from Axyz Design, but yeah, we'd be paying so much per character (+ royalties for every sold copy of Lumion) that it makes more financial sense to outsource this work, so that we actually own the characters in Lumion. The polycount of the HD characters is also rather high (8k), so again, we'd be compromising on performance and memory consumption if we opted for this kind of quality level.

Double-sided materials are indeed on the wish list, but I'm not sure if it's technically feasible without having to render the model twice or alternatively, turning culling off in DirectX/HLSL so all polygons face the camera (and this might mess up shadows). Ferry and Remko know more about this topic though.
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Ferry

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2011, 03:36:58 pm »
February 08, 2011, 03:36:58 pm
A special shader is possible but slow of course. If you want the normals to be correct.

Gabriel

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2011, 04:17:44 pm »
February 08, 2011, 04:17:44 pm
I have one word for you: freelancers. It is the best thing you can ever do. Enter freelancer or elance and you will see what i am talking about. There are thousands of very talented modelers from third world countries ready to model anything at incredible prices. I couldn't belive my eyes, architects there fight to bid at projects of 10.000 sqm for 500-1000$. I think you can easily get a full motion character for only 50$ there. Royalty free, of course. In a month with a few thousand dollars you may model a 1000 objects library, i can make a bet on that, there are thousands and thousands of freelancers there.

Aaron

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2011, 04:32:14 pm »
February 08, 2011, 04:32:14 pm
Ferry said:

A special shader is possible but slow of course. If you want the normals to be correct.




How much slower?

For highpoly foliage from Onyx, GrowFX etc. a 2sided shader would still be quite a lot faster then copy-flipping all leave polys right?

Ferry

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2011, 05:00:57 pm »
February 08, 2011, 05:00:57 pm
We already use that for the current characters. But good modelers are possible to get. But good character modelers already much harder. And animating and skinning then it gets really tricky! So in the end you need the talented people and you won't get a good model for 50$. But please prove us wrong :)

 

We will however soon introduce a new method for people to help with new characters and other models for Lumion and get rewarded for it.

Ferry

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2011, 05:01:33 pm »
February 08, 2011, 05:01:33 pm
Not sure would have to test the speed.

About the stock asset quality
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2011, 05:13:07 pm »
February 08, 2011, 05:13:07 pm
Gabriel said:



I have one word for you: freelancers. It is the best thing you can ever do. Enter freelancer or elance and you will see what i am talking about. There are thousands of very talented modelers from third world countries ready to model anything at incredible prices. I couldn't belive my eyes, architects there fight to bid at projects of 10.000 sqm for 500-1000$. I think you can easily get a full motion character for only 50$ there. Royalty free, of course. In a month with a few thousand dollars you may model a 1000 objects library, i can make a bet on that, there are thousands and thousands of freelancers there.




 

Call me a grumpy pessimist but this sounds a wee bit unrealistic for characters Smile I couldn't find any US$50 examples on freelancer.com and elance.com but I'd love to be proven wrong, so please post links to the characters/providers you're talking about.

The sad truth is that most people/companies gladly raise their prices because they think we're a huge corporation and instantly see $$$ and endless royalties to fund their retirement on Barbados. Well, not all of them but you get the idea…
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Gabriel

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2011, 05:58:46 pm »
February 08, 2011, 05:58:46 pm
Well, don't take my word for it. Try it. Put an add with a picture of a person, car, or whatever you wish modeled in the modelling section. You'll see what those guys can do, they really are very talented. You'll see their models at their profile and can choose the best one. The price is fixed, and very cheap because of the bidding. Nobody there thinks about Barbados, i think with the money they get in a week a 2 day trip to the mountains is way too much :))) I'll look for some providers and link them to you. I used to look for architects because that interested me, but i saw lots of modelling ads there and people bidding so i guess there are tons of them too.

Michael Betke

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About the stock asset quality
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2011, 11:36:49 pm »
February 08, 2011, 11:36:49 pm
A two sided shader can't be that hard to do. Almost every game uses a two sided alphatest material. Even your Speedtrees seem to use such a shader. Smile
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